Antique Books

This is the place for talking about vintage books, posting random vintage photos, and anything else vintage paper memorabilia!
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Kitty
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Re: Antique Books

Post by Kitty » Wed May 16, 2018 12:54 pm

Edit: I found out that the pictures are printed on vellum paper.
You trying to tell me you didn't hear that shriek? That was something trying to get out of its premature grave, and I don't want to be here when it does. - Phantom of the Paradise (1974)

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donnie
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Re: Antique Books

Post by donnie » Wed May 16, 2018 5:45 pm

What is vellum, exactly? Kind of like a textured paper? The photography is especially beautiful.

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Kitty
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Re: Antique Books

Post by Kitty » Wed May 16, 2018 7:01 pm

donnie wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:45 pm
What is vellum, exactly? Kind of like a textured paper? The photography is especially beautiful.
From watching videos and seeing pictures of vellum, I'm unconvinced that this is not silk. I still am unsure as to what vellum is really, but it seems to be stiffer stuff compared to this. I will get back to you on this super important matter. 😆 :lol: here is the wiki page for vellum. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vellum
You trying to tell me you didn't hear that shriek? That was something trying to get out of its premature grave, and I don't want to be here when it does. - Phantom of the Paradise (1974)

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donnie
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Re: Antique Books

Post by donnie » Wed May 16, 2018 9:05 pm

It seems from the article that, strictly speaking, vellum is animal skin, rather than paper. But I remember being vaguely aware of something like a fine grade of stationery paper being sold by that name - in boxes maybe. I must be thinking of the paper definition of the word mentioned toward the end of the article. Maybe that's the sense it is used in for the photos in the program.

Hey, vellum is a serious matter! :)

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Kitty
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Re: Antique Books

Post by Kitty » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:11 pm

The other day I learned about a children's book that was published in 1845 in Germany. It is called Der Struwwelpeter or Slovingly Peter or Shock-headed Peter, and is subtitled "Merry Stories and Funny Pictures." The stories are anything but merry! It is full of rather harsh cautionary tales for children. It was originally written by a father for his child with no intention of publishing. By urging of friends, it was published, and has some of the strangest stories I have ever read. This is coming from a girl who has read virtually everything Brothers Grimm.
This book has been translated into a fair amount of languages, and fortunately one of them is English. I found a new copy of this book online and it arrived today. Here is one of my favorites so far.
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You trying to tell me you didn't hear that shriek? That was something trying to get out of its premature grave, and I don't want to be here when it does. - Phantom of the Paradise (1974)

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donnie
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Re: Antique Books

Post by donnie » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:46 pm

:shock: :o Dang. That’s brutal! It’s hard to imagine that was meant for children, isn’t it? And illustration—complete with the blood. :?

Well, that certainly looks like a fascinating book. The way the figures is drawn is strange and unique, as well.

How do you think children of that day reacted to something like that in general? I know that’s a ridiculous question, as there’s no way to know, but I’m just interested in your opinion since you a lot of familiarity with these kinds of stories. Would you imagine they were scared out of their wits and kept firmly in place? Or maybe took them less seriously because they were used to hearing tales like this? Or what?

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Kitty
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Re: Antique Books

Post by Kitty » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:30 pm

donnie wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:46 pm
How do you think children of that day reacted to something like that in general? I know that’s a ridiculous question, as there’s no way to know, but I’m just interested in your opinion since you a lot of familiarity with these kinds of stories. Would you imagine they were scared out of their wits and kept firmly in place? Or maybe took them less seriously because they were used to hearing tales like this? Or what?
I've thought about this question since I saw it, and I think I have my answer.
I think that it depended on the age, innocence, and adults around the child to answer that question. I don't think children were very different then than they are now.
I think little children would definitely be scared of these stories, up to about maybe 10 years old. Of course, it probably depends on the way the story is written. More heavy handed tones (like the one we read in the book you gave me called Nothing To Wear) probably had more effect, while sillier literature may have a lesser effect. If the child is more sheltered or sensitive, it may have scared them even later than 10.
I think that unknown figures may have creeped kids out. Superstition-based stories probably scared children more than others. For instance, if a child knew the town tailor personally, they wouldn't think there was a danger of them cutting their fingers off. (The opposite if they didn't know him!) Gremlins or goblins (gobble-uns!) are much scarier than people, as the element of the unknown is there.
The children who had adults around them that used these stories actively as a basis for reason to obey probably would be more scared up to a certain age. On the other hand, if they had a parent who taught them from an early age what is real and what is fantasy (which I think is important especially nowadays) it probably had zero fear effect. In fact, if they had that background, I think they may be more cultured individuals when they are older.
Really, it seems to be mostly books from the mid 1800s that have grim stories as the above. In the late 1800s, there are many reality type stories where they are talking directly to the reader. There will be a picture of a homeless child and the writer will ask, "Isn't she a pitiful thing? Aren't you glad you have a nice home to live in?" and things of that nature. There is one story I have that is called Freddie's Death Song that deals with a sick boy who ends up dying.
I think as time went on, children's stories started learning toward happy fantasy and animal tales instead of cold reality. Maybe writers somewhere along the line thought children couldn't handle it? I think they can, if it's done right.
In all, to answer your question, I think it depends on the child and their surroundings as to whether they were terrified or not.
You trying to tell me you didn't hear that shriek? That was something trying to get out of its premature grave, and I don't want to be here when it does. - Phantom of the Paradise (1974)

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donnie
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Re: Antique Books

Post by donnie » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:23 pm

Thank you so much for your thoughts on that! You make a lot of interesting points. I think you're right that it probably depended a lot on the child, the circumstances, the nature of the story, etc.
Kitty wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:30 pm
On the other hand, if they had a parent who taught them from an early age what is real and what is fantasy (which I think is important especially nowadays) it probably had zero fear effect.
Yes, I think that line between reality and fantasy is becoming increasingly blurred today. It's so easy to get a warped perspective from social media and the internet in general—and maybe from video games, and the increase of virtual reality. Do you think? Or is that my warped perspective? :)
Kitty wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:30 pm
I think as time went on, children's stories started learning toward happy fantasy and animal tales instead of cold reality. Maybe writers somewhere along the line thought children couldn't handle it? I think they can, if it's done right.
Yes, that seems true—I hadn't thought about that!

You know, one reason I think this question is interesting to me is that when I was a child, I was frightened of some things that adults told me. They certainly didn't intend to be cruel or upset me, but I was a pretty sensitive child. (And grew up into a sensitive adult. :) )

Two examples that occur to me:

When I was very young and made an odd expression, my parents would say, "Be careful, if you don't watch out, your face will freeze that way." I'm sure they meant that as a joking, funny remark, but when I got alone, I would seriously worry about that. Were they joking, or if I didn't watch out, was I going to be in a hospital with a surgeon trying to cut my face free? :(

And sometimes an older lady would say to me, "If you tell lies, Donnie, the devil will come and get you." Ok. So what if I wasn't careful enough and accidentally said something untrue. I had a picture in my mind of Satan walking down the road, pitchfork on shoulder, and myself on the pitchfork, impaled through the back, kicking and screaming. That one really scared me. I can still picture it clearly in my mind. And yet, as often with children, I never asked about it or expressed my concern to my parents. With another child, maybe it wouldn't have made an impression at all... hard to know.

So anyway, I guess it's those personal experiences that make me wonder how children reacted. Were you ever frightened by things like that?

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Kitty
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Re: Antique Books

Post by Kitty » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:04 pm

Your thoughts are very interesting. Thank you for sharing those examples. Side note: Expressions and sayings are a source of great interest to me. I have never heard "The devil will come out and get you." I can imagine that was very scary to you. I was never threatened like that. :End side note.

I don't remember ever being afraid of things like that. I definitely was told that my face might stay like that.... but being a child who was prone to eye rolling and "whatever!". comments, I never believed it.
When I was very little I would watch horror movies with my older sisters and brother. I definitely shouldn't have, but I guess I had enough of that to frighten me. It was probably mostly because my brother who is 5 years older used to try to tell me that Freddy would get me or Zelda from Pet Sematary was behind me. :lol: It seems so silly now, but even still I sometimes have some gross dreams of Freddy, even though that is my favorite horror line.
It's all in how it's presented. Some of my earliest memories are sitting on dad's bed with my brothers and dad would be telling us the "man with the golden arm" story (YOU GOT IT!) and we'd beg him to tell the story again and again. ☺
You trying to tell me you didn't hear that shriek? That was something trying to get out of its premature grave, and I don't want to be here when it does. - Phantom of the Paradise (1974)

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donnie
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Re: Antique Books

Post by donnie » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:43 pm

Wow, that type of horror movie watching was pretty heavy duty for a young kid. Regarding your brother, he did to you what I’m ashamed to admit I did to mine, who is 6 years younger. Kids... :)

I’ve been having a lot really weeeeird dreams lately. Night before last, General Ulysses S. Grant was executed by the U.S. government—on our screen porch—and I assisted. :shock: Go figure.

Tonight I’ll probably dream I’m being carried off by the devil with a frozen face with Freddy and Zelda chasing behind.

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